Help me see how this ends well either way.


A lot of discussion has been going on about how many women identify with Sen. Clinton's struggle to break the glass ceiling.  I am told that they feel righteous anger at seeing yet another highly qualified and powerful woman taking second place to a charming but underqualified man. I also read that many of them will not vote for Obama and at best stay home in November should Sen. Clinton not be the nominee.  Couple that with polling that says that poorer whites won't vote for Sen. Obama and clearly the Superdelegates must make Clinton the nominee to avoid disaster.

Sadly if these things are true then the disaster is upon us already.  

Why, because the only way she wins is if the rules are changed late in the game.  All of the Democratic candidates agreed that Michigan and Florida would not count.  The popular vote is not how the party directly chooses it's nominee.  

If Sen Obama wins the majority of the pleged delegates under the agreed-to rules of the game but is then denied the nomination, it is a fair bet to predict that the party loses it's African American support.  At best it stays home, at worst it goes Republican big enough to produce a landslide. The defection doesn't have to be all that large to produce the effect.

Why would they do this against their own interest?  Because many would see the rules of the game yet again being changed midgame to benefit a white person. Why would this have traction?  Because it is perceived to happen to them all the time. Their righteous fury will most likely be even more intense than that felt by women now.

I honestly dont see how this ends well either way.  

Obama can't win with just the black vote. Clinton can't win without it, but likely can't get nominated without alienating it.



Display:


People just need some time to calm down. (2.00 / 1)

Most will get over it. Also, don't forget how many Republicans won't vote for McCain. Go to FreeRepublic (if you can stomach it), and you'll see how some of them hate him. Hopefully Bob Barr will cripple him a bit, too.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:31:17 AM EST

you are wrong (2.00 / 0)

some activists will get over, many will not.  But those are not the people who are going to defeat Obama.  Lots of Hillary voters are swing voters who will have no problem voting McCain because Obama is not ready to be president or even to run a GE campaign.

As far as African Americans, well they are not swing voters.  They are not mad at Hillary and will gladly vote for her.


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:46:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you are wrong (none / 0)

You are correct in a sense, many are not mad.  Furious would be a better descriptor.  African-American's have not historically been swing voters.  However this would likely be percieved as a huge slap in the face and would not likely be forgotten.


by tired of dynasties on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:54:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you are wrong (none / 0)

People who vote for McCain are aching for a third goddamn Bush term, and we don't need those nasty Republicans, anyway.

As far as African Americans, well they are not swing voters.  They are not mad at Hillary and will gladly vote for her.

We dismiss and devalue the importance of the African American community at our own peril. They do have minds, you know. They will be furious with Hillary (actually, many already are) if they think she's stolen the nomination from Obama, and they will not gladly vote for her. Without them, we will lose. I have no desire to crap on the AA community by denying Obama the nomination when he's ahead in pledged delegates and the popular vote.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:57:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you are wrong (none / 0)

You too easily dismiss the anger that would be felt over denying Barack Obama what many feel he has earned. He has won more delegates, more contests, and more votes. Yes it is perfectly well within the rules for that to be set aside and have superdelegates back a different candidate but there is peril in this. How could you go to African American voters and say yeah, your guy won more votes but we are going for the white person instead. They'd riot and rightly so. You think some nonsense about it being within the rules would placate them?

I know many Clinton supporters will be disappointed if she is not the nominee but at the end of the day Barack Obama won more delegates, more contests, more votes. It's hard to blame the guy for running a better campaign.


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:12:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, blacks will follow like sheep. (none / 0)

WTF? Don't see see what's going on out there? Of course, Obama's supporters (including blacks and young voters) will be pissed and won't vote for her if she steals the nomination (at this stage I am very comfortable using the verb). You won't even be able to get near a college if that happens. But it won't - we won't let it happen. If we have to, we can all meet in Denver.


by hania on Fri May 09, 2008 at 06:46:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (2.00 / 1)

I agree...a highly qualified woman forced to defer to a charming but underqualified male.  I hope every female who voted for Barack sees that when they look in the mirror this morning or as they look around the workplace today.  You are keeping the dream alive...unfortunately not the dream of earned equality.  But hey, at least Barack is dreamy!  Ya got that going for you!

I used to think the only way to resolve this dilemma is a joint ticket.  However, the more I see how the Dems have turned their collective back on the Clintons - parodied and belittled decades of work for progressive causes - the more I hope the Clintons go about the business of their charitable foundation.  We don't deserve Hillary's leadership in the Sentate, on the Court - or anywhere else.  I hope the Clintons wash their hands of the Democratic party and live the balance of their lives as they see fit.  I suspect they will still work for the little guy, but let who is left in politics figure out this mess.  They tried and you were dealt a not-so-polite, "No thanks!" by our own party for something new, shiny, and pretty instead.  

I thought the general electorate was stupid when we voted for a second term for the current President.  I asked, "How can we gamble like this when it's so important?"  I got my answer this Spring. Apparently it's our nature to trust form over substance.  Obama may end up winning the general and may end up being a successful President - how nice that will be.  But by no measure can a primary voter look at these candidates and say with confidence that Barack is a stronger candidate for the job.  Back to the same craps table we sat down at in 2000.  Shame on us.


by CMM on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:37:54 AM EST

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

Yes, forced to defer by failing to win more delegates. I understand the fact that she isn't likely to be the nominee is upsetting but really, he has won more delegates, more contests, more votes. How is this forcing Senator Clinton to defer anything? She had every advantage in the world at the start of this process.


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:24:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

My 'defer' comment was with respect to the voice of the voters - not to anything BO OR HRC did on their own.  Yes, Barack won more contests (whatever legitimacy issues you may or may not have with 'caucases.')  He won more small, red-state-come-fall anyway states - again that is beside the point that our primary system has pointed to Barack Obama as the winner.   Looking at this objectively - as if you were the boss looking to hire.  You review qualifications and, IMHO, there is no contest.  The results do not necessarily reflect logic - which was the point of my post.


by CMM on Fri May 09, 2008 at 07:25:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

Heh. Yep, those stupid caucuses are illegitimate. And of course he won states that don't matter.

And your work analogy... so, if you work for the company for ten years, you deserve the promotion, as long as you punch the right ticket- no matter the comparative talent?


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Fri May 09, 2008 at 07:51:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

Do you make sense in any post on this site?  Read it again...this time s l o w l y.  Your entire response had nothing to do with my original post nor the follow-up...except for one point...and I want you to tell me he hasn't won more states that will be red in November regardless of who is the nominee!


by CMM on Fri May 09, 2008 at 02:40:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

one other point...on what would you base that "talent" of the job applicant?  On his telling you he's the nbest person for the job or would you have him show you so(i.e. resume)?  I am sure there are a lot of smooth-talking, even inspirational people out there who have managed to be successful without credentials...the cult of personality works that way.  However, I am unsure I want such a person representing me in a US presidential contest! If you read my post I am not even disagreeing that BO may prove to be the seocnd coming...BUT WE JUST DON'T KNOW!!  It's a gamble!  HRC was the known quantity and we let her slip away.


by CMM on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:32:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

I'm not so sure we let her slip away. Given the many strengths that her supporters love and even her detractors have come to respect, Her campaign made some collossally bad judgements.  Given who she is some of those early descions are truly baffling.


by tired of dynasties on Fri May 09, 2008 at 08:49:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

Bill Clinton was all about form, too! We haven't had a candidate elected about anything except personality since Reagan swooped in. Bush Sr being the exception that proves the rule.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Fri May 09, 2008 at 07:54:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

I hope the Clintons wash their hands of the Democratic party and live the balance of their lives as they see fit.  I suspect they will still work for the little guy, but let who is left in politics figure out this mess.  They tried and you were dealt a not-so-polite, "No thanks!" by our own party for something new, shiny, and pretty instead.

Poor, poor, Clintons. They knew what was best for us but those stupid voters had other ideas...

I'm really regretting the fact that we in the Democratic Party didn't enable their dynasty.

I thought the general electorate was stupid when we voted for a second term for the current President.

Let's be perfectly honest: the type of voters now supporting Clinton are the very same folks who gave us Bush.

Apparently it's our nature to trust form over substance.

That may be part of our nature, but I fail to see how supporting the candidate pushing gas-tax gimmicks is an endorsement of substance over style.


by RP McMurphy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 08:07:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

Ahh...I see you went with the typical "Obama can't do the job and his supporters are stupid" approach!

We couldn't support him because we prefer his positions to hers, or because we prefer his approach to politics to hers, or because we believe that he has substantial leadership qualities that will go a long way toward shifting public opinion which, if Congress wants reelected, will be a driving force in creating new policies to move this country forward.

Nope.  That couldn't be it.  We're all just dumbfucks who don't know any better.

Oh, and by the way, I can, without a doubt, look at these two candidates and tell you that I believe Obama will be a better President than Clinton.  If I didn't, I wouldn't be voting for him.  I realize that you disagree, but that doesn't make either of us wrong.  It means we have different ways to assess what we want in a President.  But only one of us is being insulting to ALL the supporters of the other.


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 11:21:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Help me see how this ends well either way. (2.00 / 1)

It's bad.

There was a possibility for two historic firsts, a woman president or a Black president.  Instead of being in succession, they were in opposition.  

Ideally, I would have liked to see Hillary 2008 and then Barack in 2012 or 2016 when he'd be in his early mid-50's.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:38:25 AM EST

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

Given the dynamics I doubt we'll have either.


by tired of dynasties on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:44:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Perhaps (2.00 / 1)

I don't like the Obama electoral map.  It's all about defending blue states and shooting for an upset victory in Colorado (possible) and Virginia (not likely).  

On a personal level, it always did bother me that Obama wanted to be president right now.  I would have thought that some more national experience would have given him a lot of insight.  He's young enough that he's a viable candidate for the next 6 or 7 presidential cycles.  I'm not sure what the rush is.  

I do gauge him as impatient based on that.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:49:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Perhaps (none / 0)

BS.

There's nothing wrong with a "lack" of experience; at least, the kind Clinton's got. That's precisely why Obama's been doing so well. We want a break from that sort-of experience. The whole notion of "waiting his turn" is stupid, and belies a slew of other problems.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Fri May 09, 2008 at 07:54:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Perhaps (2.00 / 1)

I prefaced the above by saying it's "on a personal level."  It's my personal opinion, not a point by point argument designed to influence other people's opinions.  

I don't like Barack Obama.  I'll vote for him because I won't blame young men & women and Iraq for what I perceive to be the character flaws of Barack Obama.  Nor will I punish a generation (that happens to be my own generation) with scores of wingnuts on the federal courts.  The general election will be about policy for me, and McCain loses there.

But in the primary, which is based more on character and personal appeal, I have grown to strongly dislike Barack Obama.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 06:17:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

Clinton has earned the support of the African American community. If she wins the nomination, we'll have a national discussion about her efforts on their behalf and it will be fine. She'll get elected and repay them generously.

The problem obama has is that he can't show Clinton supporters anything he has done that earns him their vote. Factor in Randi Rhodes and his lack of apology, and he's up shitcreek without a paddle. I don't think he has anyway to earn our support. I'm sitting that race out. If Florida and Michigan aren't counted, I may sit the whole election out. There aren't too many elections I haven't worked on and there's never been one I haven't voted on. I just can't imagine pulling the lever for that man. I feel like he has utterly betrayed everything the Democratic party stands for and in particular, the women of this party.


by Little Otter on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:47:02 AM EST

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

Why would Barack Obama apologize for something Randi Rhodes said, as opposed to Randi Rhodes apologizing?


by forbes on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:50:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

For the same reason he apologized for Schultz' comments about McCain - to make sure that people know those comments don't reflect how he feels. I don't think he backed away because that is how he feels about Clinton and that's why I won't vote for him.

I'd be horrified if some nationally known talk show host at a Clinton event referred to Michelle Obama as a fucking whore over and over again. I'd expect clinton to apologize without even stopping to think about.

Honestly, it stuns me that obama didn't walk out, grab the nearest camera crew, and say, "listen, I want to make clear that that diatribe did not reflect my feelings. I'm proud to apologize to Clinton because I want nothing to do with what Rhodes was saying. I have enthusiastic supporters as I know senator clinton knows, but that went way too far." Why didn't he do that? Wouldn't you?

It's stunning to me that Obama supporters defend his lack of apology. It's going to cost him a lot of votes if he's the nominee.


by Little Otter on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:00:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

Why does he NEED to apologize?

Does Hillary NEED to apologize for HillaryIs44?


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Fri May 09, 2008 at 07:58:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

If McSame is smart, he'll target white women voters specifically.  If there's any sign of disrespect or unfairness from Obama to Clinton in the closing days of this primary, McSame can capitalize on it hugely.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:51:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

White women? (none / 0)

No, they won't bolt to McCain. White women who support Clinton are progressive. They'll sit the election out. And they are reliably progressive voters normally.


by Little Otter on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:07:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: White women? (none / 0)

I have a different experience here in Pennsylvania.

White women in general love Hillary.  (And I do too.) It's the same ardor and enthusiasm we see in AA's for Barack.  

If Hillary looks like she's getting shafted and Barack looks like he's in on it (whatever the real facts may be), there's going to be a lot of discontent.  If Barack does something disrespectful to Hillary, like declares victory before letting her make her own decisions, it would give McCain an opportunity to criticize "the way Barack Obama and the Democratic party mistreated Hillary."  In essence, it would be McCain chivalry.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:22:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

I think you underestimate the amount of damage done to her reputation with large parts of the African American community.  


by tired of dynasties on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:56:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

No, I don't. Clinton's going to roll out her resume if she's the nominee and we're going to hear from the thousands of Arkansans who had legal representation because of her legal clinic and then her work with the Legal Services Corporation. We're going to hear from the thousands of black Arkansans who got healthcare because as first lady, she rounded up federal funds to build healthcare facilities in rural Arkansas to serve poor African Americans. We're going to hear about her work on healthcare as First Lady that helped African American families and the Family and Medical Leave Act. She's got a very good resume, and she'll win them back. Remember, before Obama started accusing her of race baiting, she was whompin' his ass in that community. She's earned their vote. They'll come back if she's the nominee.

african Americans had their highest employment rate and their highest wages as well as their lowest crime rate, during the first Clinton administration. That's helps a lot.


by Little Otter on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:06:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

You are obviously a ferverent supporter.  I hope you are correct.


by tired of dynasties on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:10:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

Believer? No, I'm not a believer. I'm a person who has worked in over 40 campaigns in their life and has a pretty good sense of how this stuff goes.

Clinton has very quietly apologized for everything Obama has called her on. Not that she's guilty. And no one that she has apologized to has thought she was guilty. But if she's the nominee, the people who were apologized to will be there for her - because she was willing to do that, even when the charge was unfair. She's respecting their journey. She knows Obama means as much to them, as she does to me and that's why she apologized - out of respect for their journey. That's the difference between her and Obama. Obama didn't understand that he needed to apologize for the 1984 ad and for Rhodes diatribe. He didn't and so he lost any chance of getting my vote. clinton isn't in that situation. Unlike Obama, she also has a resume of service to that community so she has actual accomplishments to  discuss. Obama doesn't.


by Little Otter on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:17:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

Otter, I used the word supporter.  And again I say that I hope you are right.  

One point I have to make though is that any examination of her resume would be an act of reason.  Sadly, passion almost always trumps reason.


by tired of dynasties on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:21:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

So because he didn't understand that part of the game is apologizing for every jackasss statement made about your opponent, you will forever withhold support. Then why do you make it sound like it's a deliberate act if you think it's just that he doesn't understand that he's supposed to apologize? (which is probably one of the most accurate analyses I've seen on the subject)


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Fri May 09, 2008 at 08:05:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

Her resume won't mean a thing to them if a bunch of party insiders say, yeah, the black guy got the most votes, but we're going with the white woman instead. Any rational person can see this as an obvious truth. Barack Obama has won the most delegates, the most contests, and the most votes. I know there are many disappointed Clinton supporters out there but you can't really blame a guy for running a better campaign and that is certainly not justification in taking away what he has earned.


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:18:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

The math changes once Florida and Michigan are counted. I know Obama supporters don't like contemplating that, but counting the votes is what Democrats do.

Remember, Carter had the votes sewn up and Teddy kennedy took to the convention floor to wrest them away from him. Nothing is set in stone. Florida and Michigan will count.

And if Clinton wins, she'll get African Americans back just fine. She's earned their vote.


by Little Otter on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:33:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

Adding Michigan and Florida is one of those rule changing events I was referring to.  She forces that to his detriment and she will have a tough time winning a big chunk of the black vote back.  The perception will be white woman changes rules to shaft the black man.....again.  Her Arkansas record won't save her.  


by tired of dynasties on Fri May 09, 2008 at 07:10:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

Word. Aided and abetted by the supposed "progressive" males of the party who know now what they did or what they are doing so selfish in their own desires.


by Iceblinkjm on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:07:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)


by tired of dynasties on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:56:41 AM EST

I now have reason to vote for McCain (none / 0)

If Hillary some how manages to be the nominee.


My thoughts on McCain: I have no desire to let that idiot fulfill his desire to "Bomb Iran"
by Otaku Saru on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:01:37 AM EST

Re: I now have reason to vote for McCain (none / 0)

Oh shut up, you know she won't be the nominee -- you're just being an ass for the hell of it.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:10:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

I don't have any reason to believe this won't end well. Yes, we're seeing some bitterness now, but we're also seeing signs that the party is ready to unify. Let those that are angry get it out of their systems, and they'll come around.

Yeah, on Monday night, I probably would've agreed with you at least somewhat, but now, I think we're OK. Keep an eye out for the end of June...if things are still bad around then, that's when we may have to worry.


by Jaffee on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:35:04 AM EST

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

What signs are those? The polarization we're seeing now (one could almost call it "balkanization")isn't something that's going to go away with a couple of pretty speeches and a big ol' group hug. If anything, I see some of the positions hardening.


by Lacy Davenport on Fri May 09, 2008 at 08:24:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I think we all need to breathe a little (none / 0)

If this campaign is over by the end of the month, we're in good shape.  We'll have the summer to forgive and forget, and to move on to uniting against McCain.  If we have to wait until August to do this, we're sort of screwed.


I'm only a click away
by juliewolf on Fri May 09, 2008 at 06:46:50 AM EST

Re: I think we all need to breathe a little (none / 0)

I agree. If this is extended to the convention we (Democrats) are all screwed...neither candidate would be able to heal the wounds that an ugly floor fight would produce in 2 months.

That aside, I don't understand the comments made that Obama is "underqualified." Considering that he is running against the Clintons, who have been through 2 general elections and know the game as well as anyone, how is it that he is winning?

Also, this nonsense that those who voted for Clinton won't vote for Obama and vice-versa and that Obama won't be able to carry the states Clinton won and vice-versa needs to stop. There is no evidence to back that up. The idea that a Democrat would rather vote for John McCain than a Democrat is ridiculous. I understand there are strong emotions in the heat of the battle right now, but come November is it realistic to think that half of those who voted for either candidate will be voting Republican?


by GrahamCracker on Fri May 09, 2008 at 07:04:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Least experienced nominee almost ever (2.00 / 1)

When has he tried a case? What movement has he led, other than the Barack Obama for President movement? What has he done for a cause that was bigger than himself, unless you could call his Obama for President campaign a cause bigger than himself?

Why haven't we heard what he accomplished as a community organizer? Where are his friends from those days - what did he accomplish there?

When has he really put himself on the line, taken an unpopular stand and taken flak for it, other than in this campaign?

How will he govern. That is the main question.


by catfish1 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 07:11:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Project Vote in Illinois in 1992... (none / 0)

registering hundreds of thousands of voters.  But we've had this discussion many, many times.  I've told about his work in the state Senate on ethics, health care, civil rights, police interrogations, and the death penalty.  You counter with a Houston Press article (is that best you can do, really?) that says how Emil Jones the majority leader during the last two years of Obama's stint in the state senate gave Obama all his bills.  I point out that he passed four bills in 1997, 1998 and 2000 during a Republican state senate and a Republican Governor.  I tell you about the work he has done on nuclear disarmament, ethics, legislative transparency and Iraq in the U.S. Senate.  And you don't even respond.

Why do you think so little of 16 million of your fellow citizens?  Do you think that these people spread across all demographics are being duped?  You may not agree with the choice 16 million people and I made.  You may think that she has best resume and the right experience, but I don't agree with you.  I've looked at their records,  I've followed the campaign and I know who has the right experience.  

Why does it seem that you are unwilling to accept what happens every single primary election?  In every primary election, people work their hearts out for somebody they fervently believe in.  They think that person is the best and can't imagine anybody else getting the job.  They do everything they can for that person and s/he LOSES.  So after doing all that, they pick up the pieces and vote for the party nominee.  That's what I've done and millions of others.  Why can't you?


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Fri May 09, 2008 at 08:50:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think we all need to breathe a little (none / 0)

I think the point isn't that they will be voting for McCain; more than likely, they won't be voting at all.


by Lacy Davenport on Fri May 09, 2008 at 08:26:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Disagree - no magic date (none / 0)

will make it either good or bad. JFK, FDR, men were not tarnished by going to the convention floor.


by catfish1 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 07:06:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disagree - no magic date (none / 0)

True, but this is not about Hillary Clinton's gender.
If he roles were reversed, Obama would be in the process of being nudged out and be told that he is young, has a bright future ahead and his time will come. It would have nothing to do with his race.
This is about what is best for the party - not gender or racial politics.
by GrahamCracker on Fri May 09, 2008 at 07:13:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I think it is about gender (none / 0)

I think that she's a strong person, a strong candidate, and also female, sends people into fits of cognitive dissonance.

Add on top of it Obama is a soft-spoken guy who many wonder if he can take a punch.

And you know what? Obama does not have a lot of experience. I don't know if you're right that he'd be nudged out if the roles were reversed. People would say Hillary needs to clinch the nomination fair and square.


by catfish1 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 07:18:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Why if the situations were reversed... (none / 0)

is "fair" for her to win it, but not for him to win it in the situation before us?


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Fri May 09, 2008 at 08:53:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

She should finish what she starts (2.00 / 1)

That's how it ends well. If she quits now, it will bum me out. I know her chances are close to zero, but I would like to see her stay in until it is definitive.

It is symbolic of the workplace - honey, please take yourself out of the running because we've got this promising young upstart who is a rising star and we don't want to mar his image.

America is about fairness and also fair competition. Making her quit early will give a lot of people a vibe of unfairness.


by catfish1 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 06:56:04 AM EST

Re: She should finish what she starts (none / 0)

I agree. At first I thought it would serve Senator Clinton well to bow out on June 20th (on a high note with 2 more strong wins), but on second thought it is only right to let this historic contest play out to the end.

That said, I would like to see the personal attacks stop and see both candidates push their positions. To continue to bash one another only serves the Republicans. For example, Clinton can continue to push the gas tax holiday and take issue with Obama's position - but let's drop the "elitist" nonsense. Likewise, Obama should drop tying Clinton's position with McCain and referring to it as the "Clinton-McCain bill."


by GrahamCracker on Fri May 09, 2008 at 07:10:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'd love to see him stop personally attacking (2.00 / 1)

her. His emails were incredibly personal, and called her "desperate" "vicious" and "willing to do anything to win". The worst I saw from her was "he outspent us". I'm not kidding.

People are asking her not to compete for this race. She can stay in and run, as long as she acts like a nice lady. Sorry, she has a right to compete. She has a right, and frankly Obama had a DUTY which he didn't step up to, to say Wright would not be her pastor. Why? Wright called out Hillary and Bill from the pulpit.

People are protecting Obama the candidate instead of letting him fight it out.


by catfish1 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 07:14:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

I never said she didn't have a right to compete. Let the process play out.

I have no interest in getting into who has run the more negative campaign - there has been enough negativity to go around. Perhaps Senator Clinton should reject, denounce and disown Mr. Begala for referring to Obama supporters as "African-Americans and eggheads." See how this will go on and on and on? It needs to stop and again I agree that the process should run its course.

As for people protecting Obama instead of letting him "fight it out" - again this is motivated by doing what is best for the party. Again, if the roles were reversed Clinton would be "protected" in the same way.


by GrahamCracker on Fri May 09, 2008 at 07:24:11 AM EST

It's time to stop this. (2.00 / 1)

He's not inexperienced, and he's not the nominee because she's female any more than she got this far due to the racist vote.

You want the answer to how we're going to win the general election? The same way we win any election, by coming together behind the nominee and working for it like we want it.

This was a hard fought campaign, and there are bruises on both sides, but it's time to ditch the hyperbole on both sides, roll up our sleeves, and make John McCain sweat.


Your old role is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand, for the times they are a changing.
by Travis Stark on Fri May 09, 2008 at 08:38:36 AM EST

Re: It's time to stop this. (none / 0)

Now that's some good, common sense.  You know, I am starting to find it rather insulting, the number of people who imply that supporting either of these candidates is evidence of ignorance, bias along gender or race lines, or inability to think for oneself.  There are many intelligent, well-informed people backing both of them, many of us on both sides with strong feelings for our candidate and often against the actions and words of the other, but I hope almost all with a great deal of thought behind those feelings and opinions.  We are not fifth-graders on the playground!


"Information is the currency of democracy." -Thomas Jefferson
by bigsky on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:10:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

This won't end well, in my view. I won't vote for Obama; won't vote for McCain; will vote as an independent from now on, with no loyalty to party.

The Dems lost my loyalty this year, and they won't get it back again, even when Sen. Clinton campaigns for the Democrats in the General. As a former partisan progressive Dem, I know that if the party can drive me away, they can drive a lot of others away, who were never that partisan to begin with, and it pains me to feel this way, but there ya go.

I'm completely disgusted with the Democratic Party now, and I can tell you that there are many more like me.

They may or may not be a big enough chunk of the electorate to keep Sen. Obama from the White House. But, the Democratic Party is the big loser here. Take a look at the DNC coffers--they're empty these days. That's a sign of the rage people feel about Florida and Michigan.

So, no, this won't end well, and all the dreaming from Obama supporters won't change the fundamental fact that the Democratic Party has played the DISENFRANCHISEMENT CARD just like the GOP did in 2000.

It's disgusting.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:02:52 AM EST

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

And the DNC thinks Obama  and his money are going to save them. Little do they know they are about to go the way of the GOP in 2006.


by Iceblinkjm on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:09:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

Actually I and others I know wont give money to the dnc that might be used to help Hillary if she is percieved to have changed the rules to get the nomination.  We have given to Obama instead and will give to the party if he is the nominee or if she wins playing by the rules that she agreed to and signed her name to.


by tired of dynasties on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:13:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me see how this ends well either way. (none / 0)

It doesn't. Obama wins the nomination, loses in the GE. Hillary runs in 2012 - wins the nomination and presidency.

You have to wait another 4 years.


by nikkid on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:59:37 AM EST


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