A Hillary Hater for Hillary

All right, I don't hate Hillary.  But I did hate her campaign, and I hated it in a big, big way.  I could list all of the horrible tactics pursued in the Penn/Rovian playbook, but I don't want to invite Hillary supporters to unload on Obama's shortcomings, so I'll stay mum.  "They're horrible people," I think, was my comment in the midst of the campaign's end.  Let that speak to my deep animosity toward the Clintons for their campaign.

So why in the world would I be excited, even overjoyed, to see Hillary get the VP nod?

Because I want to see Obama elected President.

Because, though I'd like there to be a better VP candidate out there for the "change" ticket, I don't see one that'll reassure Americans that "change" doesn't mean change for the worse.

Because, damn it, she's just better than the rest of the VP candidates, even with uncontainable, unmanageable, utterly incorrigible Bill toted along behind her.

A quick run down of top VP candidates.

EVAN BAYH.  He could bring Indiana, I suppose, but at the cost of making this ticket seem too slick, too polished, too removed from most Americans' lives.  Bayh is a career politician who's the son of a career politician who happens to be to the right of Hillary.  Hillary beats him in excitement, in passion, in articulateness, in debate skills, and she'd be a far, far better attack dog, especially given her apparent warmth toward McCain as a person.  And Bayh and Hillary both had the same position on the war, so no advantage to Bayh there.

JOE BIDEN.  He brings foreign policy credentials and a great bulldog VP role, but I'd wager most Americans see Hillary as just as seasoned in foreign policy, and she'd be a yet better bulldog.  With a few notable exceptions during a brutal year-long campaign, she consistently stayed on message (even when the message might have been wrong).  Biden is a great attack dog, but there's little of Clinton's self-control and laser-like honing of message.  He's all over the map, as uncontrollable as post-Presidency Bill.  And his career in Washington far predates Hillary's, making him the quintessential Washington insider.  He also leaves Obama open to the "wind-bag ticket" charge: here are two men who just looooove to hear themselves talk.  Also: choosing Biden is an obvious Obama move to cover a perceived weakness.  He's saying, "hey, I need help with gravitas on foreign policy."  Choosing Hillary doesn't send that same message, though it accomplishes the same goal.  And both Biden and Hillary supported the war, so there's little advantage to Biden on that issue, other than the fierceness of his critique since.  I'd put Hillary a few points ahead of Biden: she'd bring in working class women and the elderly, and that could put Florida and a few states in play.

TIM KAINE.  An early favorite of mine, I'm thinking that Americans need more reassurance in the ticket than a relative novice to the political scene.  I love Kaine's enthusiasm, and I think his politics could have helped bring some evangelicals and Catholics to Obama, and he could have delivered Virginia (I don't think Hillary helps much there), but Obama has to cover his flank if he's going to convince Americans to trust in his leadership in a ridiculously unstable world.  The same goes for Sebelius.  A Clinton on the ticket would bring both economic and foreign policy reassurance.

Those are the big three.  Obama could pick Clark, in another great head-fake, but given Wes jr.'s charges, I don't see it happening, and frankly, though I like Clark a great deal, I think he comes across as somehow too aloof, too intellectual, a little too arrogant to properly balance Obama's own tendencies in those directions.  

So, barring a Jack Reed or Mark Warner, I don't see a way to generate the kind of excitement that the Obama brand needs now.  Kaine and Sebelius would have done it, but in the post-Georgia world, they won't be selected.  Biden and Bayh won't do it, since they're as insider Washington as Hillary.  If you're going to go with a Washington insider, why not make it someone with bite and focus?

So send Bill to do peace corps work some place in Africa which lacks media, or even electricity, and maybe, just maybe we can get by without a sideshow.  And have Geraldine Ferraro accompany him.

But as for Hillary, there's no more focused attack-dog, no more passionate advocate of working class women, no more reassuring candidate for the elderly, no more energizing presence, no more exciting VP candidate.  She's tough, she's a fierce and seasoned fighter, and I'd like her on our side.  If Kennedy and Johnson could swallow their pride, there's no reason why Obama and Clinton can't.

Obama/Clinton = McCain buzzsaw.  

This nation needs an Obama victory in a bad way.

Imagine.  Imagine the party in Denver.



Display:


Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (1.50 / 8)

Well you can stop dreaming because Obama and his fans on Kos and Huff will never stand for Hillary--they'd rather have Nunn.  Why, because Hillary had the audacity to stand in Obama's way.  Because, as Pelosi recently told us, God personally took time to grace us with Obama in this election.


by handsomegent on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 08:49:44 AM EST

got any links? (2.00 / 2)

got any links showing they'd rather have Nunn than Hill ?


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 09:07:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: got any links? (2.00 / 1)

I've noticed the change, the hate has been replaced with thinking, not always the best thinking, but nevertheless thinking.  Those who claim this will betray his change message want to lose and don't understand his change message. He's for ending partisan bickering, and for reaching consensus.  What's more consensus than joining the two halves of the popular vote.  And, look guys, Al Rogers? Me and him have been getting along. Won't this be fun?

And, if we can do it, what else is possible?  Skies the limit?    


what a relief
by anna shane on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 08:47:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (2.00 / 1)

Rather large generalization.  As someone who regularly posts on KOS there are still a few folks out there with a deep dislike and distrust of the Clintons. However, the majority are more pragmatic. If Obama decides Hillary is his VP and she's what's needed to win, great! Do it!

Unlike you the vast majority of Obama supporters are more concerned with winning back the White House than what did or did not happened during the primary wars.


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
by jsfox on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 09:08:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (1.60 / 10)

If HRC is the VP will Markos post some more "HRC is a racist" threads.  You remember the darkened tape.  The 3 am ad is racist because the little girl is white.  Need i go on.  Markos and kos is no different than Ann Coulter and little green footballs.  Kos is a hate page.

david


by giusd on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 10:17:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

because he doesn't like bad tactics? (1.00 / 2)

darkening that tape was bad tactics. IMNSHO, playing it both ways would have been better -- both lightening and darkening Obama pictures. Less crass, more likely to work in places where mixed don't fly.

Is it mean of me to talk about how you run a racist campaign? Maybe.


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 10:45:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: because he doesn't like bad tactics? (2.00 / 2)

nobody 'darkened' that tape so to continue to promote that lie is a lie in and of itself.


by zerosumgame on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 10:55:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Dave, you're getting a TR (1.00 / 1)

because we do NOT insult other posters around here.

that includes kos.


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 10:46:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dave, you're getting a TR (1.66 / 3)

now that is a dammed lie. another one for you in the same thread. tsk tsk tsk.


by zerosumgame on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 10:55:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

and strangly enough (2.00 / 1)

not one TR from you to all the posters insulting other posters in this diary;

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/8/19/9195 7/1379#24

well, perhaps not so strange as predictable...


by zerosumgame on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 11:34:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dave, you're getting a TR (2.00 / 1)

Whatever dude.  kos is not a poster it is a web site.  Just be honest if you dont like someone opinion you bring out the TR.

david


by giusd on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 11:43:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

kos posts here (none / 0)

mostly on the comments section when Jerome's writing.

was there a reason you troll rated my comment expressing sympathy for President Clinton's current mental difficulties resulting from his bypass surgery???

With troll ratings like that, that blatantly violate the site rules... I grow upset. Explain yourself, or I will report you to the mngmt.


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:55:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: kos posts here (1.00 / 0)

mostly to promote his lame-assed book. And yes, your hypocrisy is clear for all to see.


by zerosumgame on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:12:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: kos posts here (2.00 / 0)

That's rich coming from you zero. You're the biggest deadender PUMA here.


by venician on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:31:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why venician. (2.00 / 0)

I'm done playing nice with the PUMA crowd.


by venician on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:09:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: kos posts here (1.00 / 0)

You dont strike me as some one who cares about the TR rules or you would not have TR me.

If you re-read them you will see this.

david


by giusd on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 02:50:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

it says don't insult posters (1.00 / 0)

you insulted a poster.

your comment appears to have picke dup an extraneous troll rating from a troll.


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 04:27:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it says don't insult posters (2.00 / 0)

Really what posted did i insult?

Try writting i was wrong that would be a good start.

Markos is not a poster.  Try to get you facts straight and not write things that are untrue.

david


by giusd on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 06:42:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

kos posted on the thread about his book (none / 0)

he often gets into arguments with Jerome on the front Page.


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 08:51:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dave, you're getting a TR (2.00 / 0)

Really? When did "we" stop insulting other posters around here?
by zenful6219 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:31:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (2.00 / 3)

david, I'm uprating you for TR abuse.  The site rules don't say diddly about bashing bloggers on another site, and you don't bash anyone here.

And, you're right, the racism accusations from KOS were bs.  The "darkening" discussion was bogus.


by slynch on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:01:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (2.00 / 2)

Thanks

dg


by giusd on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:05:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (2.00 / 0)

I am uprating you as well


by 2maddogs on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:43:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Markos posts here (2.00 / 1)

I do not hiderate people for being idiots. I hiderate people for blatantly insulting posters who post here.

Not that I terribly mind your uprate. Just trying to be clear.


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:57:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Markos posts here (2.00 / 0)

once again you are lying since a prime example of that was shown linked in this thread for you and you ignore it. Who you TR are those whose opinion you do not like, no matter the actual facts it is only your emotional reaction that you punish other people for. For you to try to excuse it like that it is just laughable.


by zerosumgame on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:15:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are so tedious zero (2.00 / 4)

Every single thread. Whining and looking for a fight. It's impressive, to be mean and tedious at the same time


by duende on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:45:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are so tedious zero (2.00 / 2)

Great: a troll rating from catfish's sockpuppet. I must be doing something right!


by duende on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:45:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are so tedious zero (2.00 / 1)

It's a badge of honor, Brit. Wear it with pride. Oh, and dear old blottoPestado isn't a sockpuppet - just a reincarnation of the catfish we know and love.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 05:52:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Markos posts here (1.00 / 0)

HYPOCRITE, you just did Tr'd me because you didn't like my comment about Bill.


by venician on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:36:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Markos posts here (none / 0)

yo, silly billy I never made that claim, it was blogsurrogate who is the hypocrite, oh and you as well since the rules ALSO say not to trash other dems. Do try to keep up with the actual conversation, not the one in your head...


by zerosumgame on Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 10:59:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah, now that you need her, she's acceptable... (1.00 / 2)

Did you see his favorable rating has come down from 59% to 48%? - good luck with your selected candidate. We've told you repeatedly that he was going to be a losing candidate!

McCain is in the high 80's for the best person to handle national security matters and the crisis with Russia compared to Obama's 40's. There is no way that the american people will vote for a thin resume candidate in a time of war on 2 fronts and now with the possibility of starting a second cold war + economical crisis. Forget it, it will never happen!

It could have with the Clintons because of Bill having held the position and doing such a good job with the economy, but no..... they were both the devil reincarnated..... Us, old bitter people who have gone through countless of elections told you this scenario would happen, to no avail!


by suzieg on Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 04:46:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (2.00 / 1)

That's just a ridiculous sweeping generalization, based on the very vocal opinions of a few idiots.  That's like saying all Hillary supporters are PUMAs who want to destroy the party.


by geverend on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 09:15:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (2.00 / 0)

It is of course a genaralization but I don't doubt it's true. Ihave listened to CSPAN call-in almost every moring and I remember over the course of the campaign hundreds of Obama callers saying they would NEVER back Clinton because she would be stealing the nomnation, etc., etc.  Are you kidding me?  If the supers stuck by Clinton (and let's say Obama had won the popular vote ((which he didn't)) you don't think that Jesse and Al would be out in Denver with busloads of people protesting? Please. The very fact that they obviously are not going to at least offer her the second spot (as she hinted she would to him) is proof enough for me of the rancor of the Obama crowd.  They just don't want Hillary to be on the ticket, they want "Clintonism" wiped out.


by handsomegent on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 09:54:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (none / 0)

I remember over the course of the campaign

As you said over the course of the primary. The primary is over and most have moved on. And while I know I am asking the impossible you should too.


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
by jsfox on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 10:09:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (2.00 / 0)

Again what % of Obama supporters would be "moving on" if the situation were reversed?


by handsomegent on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 10:12:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (2.00 / 0)

Pretty much all of them.  You certainly wouldn't see them forming PACs to defeat Hillary (and elect McCain) or shrieking in blog comments about what horrible treatment dirtbags like Jerome Corsi are receiving.


by Rumproast on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 11:46:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Curious as to where (none / 0)

that shrieking might be happening?


by ReillyDiefenbach on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 11:48:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (1.00 / 0)

I will have to disagree with that, especially since the Media had placed its bets on Obama. I had read several media outlets (i.e., newspapers, magazines, & internet sources in general) that Obama should start/launch an independent campaign for president to slight Hillary.


by Check077 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 11:58:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (none / 0)

(as she hinted she would to him)

You really only hear what you want to hear don't you. If you had been paying attention Obama said any number of times that Hillary would have to be on anybodies, including his, short list for the VP slot.


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
by jsfox on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 10:14:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (1.00 / 0)

uh, I heard Bill make a direct reference to Obama on the ticket not all that long ago and I do understand English.  Obama is not serious at all about Hillary and just trying to placate her supporters. It's very obvious.


by handsomegent on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 10:28:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (1.00 / 0)

Again, as I said yesterday before my post got deleted, I won't be blogging on here after the VP announcement except for a few final comments--nor will I reregister under another name. So you won't have to put up with me much longer.


by handsomegent on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 10:31:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

We'll believe it (none / 0)

when we see it.  


by ReillyDiefenbach on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 11:35:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We'll believe it (none / 0)

Oh fuck yourself.


by handsomegent on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 10:33:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (none / 0)

Are you so stupid to still believe that the winner of the Democratic Presidential primary would be the one with the most votes and not the one with the most delegates?


by venician on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:32:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Of course, that point is academic (none / 0)

Since he won both.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 06:35:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (none / 0)

you do realize there are a lot of diaries that say just that here? and posters who act on that with their TR's and HR's. Even 2 "popular" one last night who stated they would condition their votes on who he picks as VP and would "sit it out" and allow McLame to be selected this time.


by zerosumgame on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 10:58:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If it's Obama/O'Reilly... (2.00 / 1)

I won't vote for him.  ZOMG IM LIEK TOTALLY CONDITIONING MAH VOTE ON TEH VEEP!!!one

Talk about misrepresentation.

zerosumgame=zerologic.  'Nuff said.


Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?
by Elsinora on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 05:00:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Kossack on Hillary as VP (none / 0)

A response to the same diary, posted there after I saw your comment:

"I have to admit that right after the primary I would have screamed no f'ing way! Now, as they say time heals. If Hilary is what is needed to win and how and where to use Bill both during the campaign and after Obama is elected has been figured out  I am all for it!

Do we lose some Republicans, maybe, but I think in the end the gain is greater than the loss."

Most on Kos will absolutely make their peace.  And Kos at one point considered endorsing Hillary himself.


by maconblue on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 11:13:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice diary and all (none / 0)

but Hillary will not be the VP, you can all take that to the bank and write checks against it.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 11:37:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You got that (2.00 / 1)

Troll rating for your comment which does not reflect reality and seems more about fanning the DKos vs. MYDD flames.

There are quite a few people on Kos who want Clinton for VP, many who don't want Nunn and at the moment, Clark and Biden seem to be the favorites there.


Hillary is voting for Obama, so why aren't you?
by BrighidG on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 11:22:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This is who wants Obama (none / 0)

according to our resident racist Hillary troll:

"Your "We Shall Overcome" crowd. Black people have been waiting for Sidney Poitier to be the Oval Office ever since Guess Who's Coming To Dinner or was it Lillies of the Field"


by ReillyDiefenbach on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 11:25:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"Okay, I realize again (2.00 / 1)

that this will be the beginning and the end for me at this site.  But it's a great big world out there and I guess I'll find something else to do-like badmouth Obama whenever I can."

by handsomegent  

Just so you know who you're dealing with, folks.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 11:31:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Okay, I realize again (2.00 / 0)

I am well aware of who and what he is. Here's one of his comments:

I infer that you think "it's" chocolate ice cream--just like Obama- but the smell, honey, gives it away. Ah, what a collection of mentally superior folk the Obama crowd is?  Do you all have PhD's or something?

by handsomegent on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 12:32:01 AM EST

Note his chococlate ice cream analogy.


by venician on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:37:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Okay, I realize again (none / 0)

Thank you for the quotes but the chocolate ice cream bit had nothing to do with race, idiothead, it's a common expression for everybody's chocolate ice cream-even yours.


by handsomegent on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 10:35:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (none / 0)

As a religious person who does not see events in the world as happening by chance, I happen to agree with Nancy Pelosi.

I wish she hadn't said such a thing, however.  It plays into the budding narrative on the religious right that Obama either a) is the antichrist or b) thinks he's the messiah, or c) both.

Your comment above seems to imply that insidious Republican narrative.  Think about it.  I know you (and me and a lot of other Clintonistas) have resentment and anger toward Obama (in my case, less toward Obama than his supporters and surrogates).  But this religious narrative being written on Obama is a really nasty, dirty, underhanded thing.  

Let's not do the repugs job for them if we can avoid it.


The universe is a casual place, not a suit-and-tie affair.
by mtnspirit on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:30:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (2.00 / 1)

Pre-Georgia, post-Georgia, whatever. Every move Obama's made on foreign affairs has been solid. Give me VP Sebelius! I want someone who can handle an economic crisis backing him up.

Georgia, schmorgia, it's the economy, stupid!


Visit Election Inspection for analysis, polls, and predictions!
by X Stryker on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 09:44:35 AM EST

I want someone who can handle a gun crisis (none / 0)

Sebelius first,
Clark second.

not clinton. too compromising, too compromised. I voted for the new guy, because he was less entangled. Because other people believe in him.


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 10:48:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (2.00 / 3)

I'll vote for Obama no matter who the vp pick is. In my humble opinion, we need a Democratic president. That's what matters.  Any Democrat is better than any Republican, period.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 09:52:31 AM EST

Most conscious adults (2.00 / 1)

are with you on that one.  Picking Hillary would be a repudiation of everything Obama has tried to work towards during his campaign, but McCain is too awful to contemplate.  If he wins, we're definitely moving to Canada and hoping the spatter of the U.S. melting down doesn't get on us too much.  
   We do, however, get these bitter old biddies calling in to Bill Press and Thom Hartmann and Rachel Maddow saying they're going to sit this one out.  One hopes they're not as numerous as they appear to be.
by ReillyDiefenbach on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 11:46:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Most conscious adults (none / 0)

Come, come.  Obama's going to be fine.   I was told by an unimpeachable source that I was going to be surprised by the size of Obama's victory.  So no worries.  Oh...wait...that was you.  Never mind.

If Obama wins, it's going to be a nail biter.  And I'm not at all sure he wins.

Neither McCain nor Obama has run a particularly good campaign over the past two months.   But there are aspects of "Bambi vs. Godzilla" that trouble me.


by InigoMontoya on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:48:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your title is a lie... (none / 0)

You support Hillary. You should hate Hillary if you hated her campaign because it was the reflection of her leadership. All of the internal memos show that as well. She ran the lousy campaign and their is no evidence that that would be any different now.


by IowaMike on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 09:55:23 AM EST

Re: Your title is a lie... (none / 0)

Oh come on relax. Before you accuse somebody of lying have some proof.


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
by jsfox on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 10:17:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your title is a lie... (none / 0)

Hillary hater...then admits they don't hate Hillary. And, if you look at their diaries form the past, they are clearly a major Hillary supporter.

Its time to stop swimming in deNile folks!


by IowaMike on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 10:22:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Are you KIDDING me? (none / 0)

Where are my pro-Hillary comments, since you've vetted me so well?  Go on Dailykos and find them there too!  Why so delusional as to not take my word that I've always been of the anyone-but-Hillary camp--an Edwards supporter pre-Iowa, and an Obama supporter post-Iowa.  And why did I switch to Obama?  Because I wanted the anti-Hillary forces to unite.  Clearly, not the thinking of a Hillary supporter.

The bigger question is why in the world wouldn't you take me at my word?  Are you delusional? Go check my comments on Kos and tell me I'm a secret Hillary supporter.  I'll start looking for YOUR Kool-aid.

Here's just one sample: "Hillary's a serial liar/exaggerator, deluded, and a spineless triangulator like her husband.  This makes Hillary an effective old-style politician, not any more evil than most politicians."

I'll just add this for fairness: before the election is over, Obama will be some of these things too (if he's not already).  Just you watch.  I voted for the guy, and I'm an enthusiastic supporter, but he's a politician, just like Edwards.  And politicians are not nuns.  For the most part, they're bastards.  And bastards get elected.

Which brings me back to getting Clinton on the ticket. . . if it'll get Obama elected.


by maconblue on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 11:07:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It seems, (none / 0)

I made a clerical error.

I thought i hit your diary lists and saw a list of a bunch of pro hillary concern troll obama stuff. But I now see that I, by accident, hit another open page on someone else. I based my accusation on my mistake.

I am sorry.

We should recognize that historically the country tilts repug in pres elections and unless a dem is an incumbent with a strong economy the elections always are closer if the dem actually wins.


by IowaMike on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:00:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah, glad it was a mistake. (2.00 / 1)

I didn't want to start combing through my comments for pro-Hillary stuff.

My main concern with the Clintons is that they take the advice of ruthless slime-balls like Dick Morris and Mark Penn.  But I think deep down Hillary is very, very concerned with working class issues and healthcare.  You just have to trust in the core of these politicians and hope for the best.  But, contrary to McCain's indications, they're ALL egotists, and they all very badly want to become President.  And that's why I can forgive Clinton for the tactics of the campaign.  We've got to think of the end-goal: helping the nation recover its footing after a disastrous Presidency, both domestically and internationally.

I also think Clinton has been, a few grandstanding missteps and caves (including the Iraq war) notwithstanding, one of the most effective Senators around.  She knows how to work hard, and she knows how to work the system, and she's good--very, very good--with details.  These are qualities that are advantageous in a VP.


by maconblue on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:56:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She fights dirty. (none / 0)

So do Republicans.  So will Obama before this is through.

I hated that she used general election tactics against a Democratic opponent.  I hated that she did, in fact, take advice from Mark Penn in her characterizations of Obama.  

But now that we're in the general, I can forgive just about anything so long as we elect a Democratic President.  I'm sure Lyndon Johnson was an absolute ass to Kennedy.  He still picked him for VP.

I don't want to relive the campaign though.  Too painful.  


by maconblue on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 10:56:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She fights dirty. (none / 0)

LBJ the night of November 21, 1963, leaving Clint Murchison's party:
'after tomorrow those S.O.B.'s will never embarrass me again - that's no threat - that's a promise."

by ReillyDiefenbach on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 11:55:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

100% agreed (2.00 / 2)

Except for the Bill hate.  He's been demonized by the media and used/abused by the Obama camp.  That's for another post.  On the whole though- you are right.  Without Hillary Obama has a 55% chance of winning.  With her?  65-70%.  Period.


by easyE on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 10:48:14 AM EST

I feel utterly sad for Bill (1.00 / 4)

... poor pumphead.

He aint' what he used to be, knows it, and knows that he'll be called upon to be what he used to be ANYWAY. And that he'll still have to serve, even if he screws up.


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 10:49:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (2.00 / 2)

what do you guys have against Bill?
I guess you dont want someone who knows what he is doing and actually has good experience to pass on.
by rocky on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 11:15:34 AM EST

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (1.00 / 4)

The fact that give or take 45% of the country can't stand the sight of him and his tendency to run off at the mouth or launch into red-faced raging tirades when contradicted would indicate very little role for Bill Clinton in the campaign. Obama's camp can't control him.
Change is the theme, don't you know.
by ReillyDiefenbach on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:01:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I hate to break this to you, but..... (2.00 / 1)

Those holding a "strongly unfavorable" view of Barack Obama hovers around 32% in the Rasmussen Daily Tracking Polls...his overall unfavorables average about 46%. In other words, the potential for improving his unfavorable numbers is very limited, since the proportion of those who feel very negatively about him is the lion's share of his negative ratings.

Given that he's only been on the national scene for less than a year, this indicates the average voter has a visceral discomfort and dislike for Obama.

So I wouldn't worry too much about the 45% who may not like President Clinton. Given that he's actually done substantive things in his career, it's inevitable that he'll have a few enemies.


by BJJ Fighter on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:13:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We're going to win this thing, (2.00 / 1)

but with an attitude like this:

"the average voter has a visceral discomfort and dislike for Obama."

it won't be because of you.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:16:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Troll rated by CATFISH2 (none / 0)

That's rich, isn't it?


by ReillyDiefenbach on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:38:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

catfish (none / 0)

that was ten years ago.  I submit he's made some moves since then that have somewhat affected that high regard, including his tone-deaf performance during this past primary.

I got love for the man, but he's off the reservation.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 02:41:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Part of the reason that the Obama campaign (2.00 / 1)

is stumbling so badly right now, is that they're finding out what a truly "negative" campaign looks like.

When Hillary ran the "3 AM" ad during the Texas primary, you would have thought that it was on a par with Willie Horton or something. All I heard from Obama folks was that Senator Clinton was running a "dark" and "vile" campaign ("she has gone too far this time!!!"), and that the Clinton legacy was damaged forever! Horrors!!

To which those of us who have been in campaigns responded, "you folks ain't seen nothing yet"...the President's remarks in SC regarding Jesse Jackson's success there were described as racist, and the list goes on.

Both Senator Clinton and the President were demonized for relatively harmless stuff. Now that the Obama folks have to deal with Dr. Corsi's book, last night's FOX documentary on Obama, etc., they truly don't know what's hit them. And they haven't seen anything yet. They are about to face a tsunami.


by BJJ Fighter on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:24:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Part of the reason that the Obama campaign (1.25 / 4)

Oh please, in the context of a Democratic primary she did go "too far." The RFK comment, the hard-working white people comment, branding him as an "elitist," the gas tax holiday pandering, etc. She opened up a rightwing-style attack on him long before the primaries were over. She laid the groundwork for the McCain campaign by attacking him from the right. Obama, Axelrod, etc. know exactly what's coming their way and this constant belly-aching by (ex-)Hillary supporters about how badly he's stumbling is hogwash. It's August.  VP picks haven't been rolled out, debates haven't taken place, he's still up in all of the electoral maps I've seen, and the situation in Iraq is still volatile and McCain's banking everything on the surge. Give it a rest.


by Rumproast on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:37:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama's not stumbling (2.00 / 0)

He's not soaring either.  He's doing good, solid "B" work.

Hillary's campaign didn't lay the groundwork for scum like Rove.  They didn't need to learn how to destroy Obama's reputation from Hillary's campaign.  They were going to do it anyway.  And that's why it wouldn't be bad to have Hillary hitting McCain harder than she hit Obama--and it wouldn't be difficult to do so.  

And you're right: we haven't seen anything yet.


by maconblue on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:04:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"B"?? there must be grade inflation (2.00 / 1)

Right now, the Republicans are facing:

The most unpopular President in history,
Dems winning special elections in the backwoods of Mississipi, as well as other traditionally Republican strongholds,
Meltdowns in the financial sector and overall economy,
Gas at $4 a gallon,

And the Democratic candidate--Barack Obama--is tied with the GOP nominee, a man who often appears to be enfeebled and confused. I don't consider this campaign to be good solid "B" work, I consider it to be in trouble.


by BJJ Fighter on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 05:24:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The 3 AM ad was fair-game. (2.00 / 1)

I didn't like it at all, and I hated Hillary for running it, but at the time I thought, it's within the range of acceptable tactics, and it's probably smart politics.  She went over the line when she indicated that McCain passed a threshold and Obama didn't.  And it's that comment that complicates the VP thing.

But I never thought Hillary threw what she could have thrown at Obama had she been a Rovian Republican.  It was from the same strategy, but with restraint.

And I think what Obama has faced from the McCain campaign so far hasn't been as tough as Clinton's campaign.  But it'll get much, much, tougher, and much, much darker the closer we get to the election.  Jeremiah Wright will reappear, race will reappear, the charges will get nastier.

McCain is a nasty man--you could see it when he faced off with doe-eyed Romney in the debates.  And he's not above out-and-out lying, which he did with Romney in Florida.  Of course, if you leave your first wife after getting a disfiguring accident, you pretty much know what you're dealing wiwth.


by maconblue on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:01:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (1.00 / 1)

He sexually harassed a women in the work place, that's what I have against him.


by venician on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:40:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (1.50 / 2)

and now we have heard from the Mellon-Scaife wing of the GOP...


by zerosumgame on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:14:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (1.00 / 1)

then support your lie if you can, coward. And yes there is a real definition of harassment in the workplace and it looks a lot like you don't know what it is.


by zerosumgame on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:55:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (1.00 / 0)

Did Monica work at the White House? Yes. Did he  seduce her at work? Yes,Was it an unwanted advance? Doesn't matter
From The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission
"The victim does not have to be the person harassed but could be anyone affected by the offensive conduct." Was anyone else affected by what he did? You bet.

Apology accepted


by venician on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 05:34:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (none / 0)

actually it DOES matter as outlined by the very agency you posted that lie above about;

The harasser's conduct must be unwelcome.

http://www.eeoc.gov/types/sexual_harassm ent.html

see, a link and a quote, that is how an honest poster does it. and I am sure no apology will ever be forthcoming from an abuser like yourself.


by zerosumgame on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 05:42:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (none / 0)

I guess you CAN'T read:

"The victim does not have to be the person harassed but could be anyone affected by the offensive conduct.


by venician on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 06:31:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (1.00 / 2)

so who was that then? you have to have someone in mind, but then you only named Monica and that was not unwelcome and yet need to have a victim of some sort for that to come into play and I never heard anyone allege that because of their escapades they were affected negatively...you really are not making any since at all. will you ever? your vague unsupported claims really sounds a lot like Newt in the 90's.


by zerosumgame on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 06:55:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (1.00 / 0)

Really? We lost the White House didn't we.


by venician on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 07:11:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (1.00 / 2)

then file a class action or STFU it is obvious that you are just trolling so good luck with that


by zerosumgame on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 07:40:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (none / 0)

oh and I hate to tell you that your political disappointment (doubtful that you really were since you seem to be taking such joy in it) is not covered by the EEOC, nor are marriage vows. The bottom line is your opinion does not equal law. that is a GOP-type obsession.


by zerosumgame on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 07:09:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (1.00 / 0)

Talk about not making sense!


by venician on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 07:15:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's because he eclipses Obama, PERIOD! (1.00 / 2)


by suzieg on Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 05:17:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama-Clinton would be a terrible ticket (2.00 / 2)

Like the diarist, I wasn't a big fan of how she ran the campaign, but I've moved on, but the realist in my isn't buying the fact that an Obama-Clinton ticket would be a sure thing. In fact, I'd argue that it would be a disaster.

Reasons:

1) A large % of hardcore Clinton supporters would view a VP selection as "beneath" her and a impediment to her running again in 2012

2) The media would focus almost exclusively for weeks, if not months, on how well Hillary (and Bill) were getting along with Barack (and Michelle).  The manufactured soap opera would drown out everything else on the Dem side in the MSM.

3) The "rightwing conspiracy," with a flip of the switch, could ignite the well-documented "Hillary Hatred" (and "Bill Hatred") without much effort. It's delusional to think that wingnuts were won over by Blue Collar Hill. Knowing that Hill and Bill could be returning to the White House will wipe away whatever inroads, real or imagined, Hilary supporters think they made with the Scaife/Murdoch crowd.  It ain't happening.  Remember what drove them insane about Bill at the start of his presidency: they thought he was moving in on their turf (welfare reform, etc.). We'll be fighting smears about Wrights and Rezko and smears about Lewinsky and Whitewater.  And don't even get me started about what the'll be saying about universal healthcare.


by Rumproast on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 11:58:40 AM EST

Re: Obama-Clinton would be a terrible ticket (none / 0)

Sorry, in advance, about all of the typos.  I've really gotta start using preview. Or take a typing class.

And, for the record, I think #2 is probably the most worrisome of the three issues I listed, although all of them are worthy of great concern.


by Rumproast on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:08:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama-Clinton would terrible for wing-nuts (none / 0)

And we might lose some independents who would have been swayed by a nasty, nasty campaign that we be unrolled soon.  What it does is fortify the base and get them in a fighting mood.

Those damned boxing gloves that followed Hillary have given her the reputation of a fighter.  Obama and Hillary fighting hard will unite women, the elderly, African Americans, latino/as, and some--some--working class whites.  (I've never bought the idea of Hillary as beloved by working class white guys).

We'd lose Georgia for sure, and maybe Virginia.  But we'd take New Mexico off the map, maybe Pennsylvania, and probably win Florida and maybe, maybe Ohio.


by maconblue on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:08:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama-Clinton would terrible for wing-nuts (none / 0)

You make a good argument.  My concern is that whatever gains we'd get out of Hillary's "fighting spirit" would be offset by the Repub base coming out in droves to vote against her (and Bill). I'm leaning toward Biden because I think he can embody that same fighting spirit w/out triggering a rush to the polls from the Dittoheads.


by Rumproast on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:12:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I like Biden too, (none / 0)

but he's not as exciting as Hillary, and not as uniting within the party.

And I'm in Georgia.  I'm sensing the right-wing evangelical flirtation with Obama is ending, and ending quickly.  They'll gin up the base before this election with race-fears, Jeremiah Wright, calling religion bitter, etc. etc.  The right-wing base LIVES to get apoplectic every two to four years.  

I used to think that Obama could run in the middle and take places like Georgia.  But I see the writing on the wall: the Republicans are good at nothing except motivating their base.


by maconblue on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 02:19:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (2.00 / 0)

I'm starting to feel the same way. I'm a little uneasy about HRC as VP, but if that's what Obama has to do to win he should suck it up and do it.


by democrattotheend on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:20:51 PM EST

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (2.00 / 0)

As an early Obama backer, I would be okay with Hillary as the VP choice. From what I've seen and read, my guess is that there would be more Obama supporters okay with Hillary as VP as there are Hillary supporters okay with Obama at the moment.
However, it's not going to happen anyway. I think the main reason is Bill Clinton, more than Hillary. Just today it was reported that after stating that he favored Obama's energy plans, he also said the following,
"But John McCain has the best record of any Republican running for president on the energy issue and on climate change."
No way he would have said that if Hillary had won and not something you would hear if Hillary was going to be named the VP choice.
by oden on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:45:05 PM EST

To all who say it'll never happen. . . (none / 0)

you're probably right.


by maconblue on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:09:30 PM EST

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (none / 0)

Now you just sound like a real Democrat that wants to win, which is much more attractive than being any kind of a "hater" (although you sure brought a bunch of them out of the woodwork).


by LakersFan on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 02:33:55 PM EST

Re: Your resident 'McCain troll' here says (none / 0)

I'll just quote you, and that will be my comment.

Check into a rehab clinic, your CDS is cripping you.


by venician on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:17:49 PM EST

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (none / 0)

I'm on the record as opposing a "unity ticket," but I must admit that if she were the VP, I'd be a lot more motivated to help.

And I would LOVE to see the uproar at Kos and the Huffington Post.


Another Clintonista against John McCain
by psychodrew on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:35:17 PM EST

Please. Please. Please. (none / 0)

Do you really think that President's forge policy all by their little old selves, staring the enemy down eye-to-eye?  Who will McCain have as Secretary of State?  Secretary of Defense?  Who will Obama have at those posts?  THOSE are the folks who will be staring Putin's equivalents eye-to-eye.  What you look for in a President is judgment.  McCain voted to go to fight a needless war.  4,000 Americans have died and countless Iraqis.  Obama was opposed to the war.  That's a judgment call, and it was a good one.  McCain would appoint Scalia and Thomas to the court.  Obama would oppose them.  That's a judgment call, and it's a damned good one.

A supreme court ushered in the era of segregation in 1896 giving it its stamp of approval.  It took until 1954 to undo the damage of a conservative court.  Think about what will happen should McCain get the chance to replace one, two, three of the aging moderate/liberal judges.  Now THAT would usher in something closer to Caeser in notoriety.


by maconblue on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 04:25:25 PM EST

good diary, agreed (none / 0)

I think it would work well, some republicans might go home but imho not many.

Mostly I'd like to see what the remaining PUMAs find to howl about...

-chris


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 05:59:58 PM EST

Probably that she isn't #1. (none / 0)

As our dear catfish pointed out earlier.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 06:32:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your resident 'McCain troll' here says (none / 0)

So Obama needs to just concede, and nominate Hillary for president, over the wishes of the REST of his supporters. Just to get YOUR vote. Quaint.

If there's one thing this primary has taught me, it's that bitter, spiteful, self-centered toxicity isn't just the domain of rabid right wing loons. The self-styled "progressive" crowd appears just as infected with this disease, and more's the pity for that. Personally, I'd trade this lot for progressive-minded Obamacans in a heartbeat, "lifetime democrats" or not.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 06:27:48 PM EST

Re: A Hillary Hater for Hillary (none / 0)

Back in May, Dr. Tantillo ('the marketing doctor'),  who has  (a blog on branding) did a post arguing against the idea of an Obama-Clinton ticket--positing that from a branding perspective, it makes no sense, and actually wouldn't be a good move for Clinton's brand, either.

"Because of the length of this primary fight, brand identity and loyalty to brand have become central. What this means is that a kind of brand mutual exclusivity has set in."

Not sure if I agree or if this idea still holds at this point, but it is a compelling argument - (and one that I at least think goes a long way toward explaining Obama's hesitation to choose Clinton as his running mate--even if it would go a long way toward building party unity and seemingly clench the general election for Obama.)

Link to the full post


by elo on Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 10:11:40 AM EST


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